I had originally dug out some of the excellent Copplestone Gangsters for a 'Costumed Villain' cast for 7TV. As I was generating the cast, I wondered how easy it would be to use 7TV/Action:Engine for games set in the Twenties.

The answer is very easy.

The weapon and character options translates perfectly, I could think of only one area of change, the requirement for armed Law Enforcement.

So here are my thoughts (completely untested).
Armed Police Officer.
Stats as existing policeman, except rating +1 and Pistol 4+

Special Effect: Public Opinion
Though the general public think "something should be done about them Mad Dogs with Guns", seeing the police running round with Tommy guns, shooting up the town makes them look no better than the hoodlums they are supposed to be catching.

When the scenario starts, if the number of SMGs in the Cast exceed those of the opposing cast then lose one VP at the end of the game.

Upgrade options - only available if the cast contains a "Hardened Investigator" Star(my memory was right).
Upgrade to Rifle +1
Upgrade to SMG (Tommy gun) +2

Comments and thoughts...

Great idea!

I do like that. Bugsy Malone rides again.

The Armed Policeman profile would do for regular 7TV games too, to represent the forces of Law And Order a globe trotting hero might encounter abroad. One of those less civilised lands where they feel the need to arm their constabulary.
The SMG wouldn't be appropriate for modern use, but rifles or shotguns might be issued in exceptional circumstances.

According to "Life on Mars" your DI could just sign Firearms out and give em willy-nilly to your staff in 70's LoL!

Gene Hunt - you have to love the Gene Genie!

Rather than an upgrade available when a hardened investigator is available I'd go for a completely different extra: the G-Man. This is standard police constable with the upgrade options you listed. They can also be created from the Driver extra.

Additionally I would add the SMG upgrade option to the 'Eavy and Criminal profile (just in case you don't have it the criminal is in the summer special supplement). In this case I'd make the cost 3 rather than 2 as it is a bit outside their normal profile.

You may also wish to consider the possibility of being able to arm one in five civilian models  with a pistol. Give an attack of 5+ and cost it at 6/4 ratings (something about a right to arm bears on one side of the Atlantic).


I do like the public opinion rule but I'd be picky and call this a Show special effect

I have done some early work on A:E Pulp (entitled TKO) including outlines for the archetypes. I had a Crusading Crimefighter who's roots are in the Hardened Investigator archetype.

Quoted from Doctor Warlock

According to "Life on Mars" your DI could just sign Firearms out and give em willy-nilly to your staff in 70's LoL!

That was my thought, you could load your cops for bear (though the city is not generally the natural environment for ursines), but someone had to sign the paperwork.

Quoted from Dalek4890l

Rather than an upgrade available when a hardened investigator is available I'd go for a completely different extra: the G-Man. This is standard police constable with the upgrade options you listed. They can also be created from the Driver extra.

My reasoning follows Doctor W's, Rifles and SMGs are not general issue. Your average G-Man is most likely to be armed with a pistol, I would have thought that rifles and SMGs are unlikely to be available to the avarage bureau agent. The driver is an upgrade on a lot of the extras, and would be included.

Quoted from Dalek4890l

Additionally I would add the SMG upgrade option to the 'Eavy and Criminal profile (just in case you don't have it the criminal is in the summer special supplement). In this case I'd make the cost 3 rather than 2 as it is a bit outside their normal profile.

I thought about that, but looking at the stats, I saw no real advantage over just using security guards as tommy gunners.

Quoted from Dalek4890l

You may also wish to consider the possibility of being able to arm one in five civilian models  with a pistol. Give an attack of 5+ and cost it at 6/4 ratings (something about a right to arm bears on one side of the Atlantic).

Possibly, but the image I get from the films about that period do not have a general armed populace (though there are the odd humorous exception - an exercise for the reader). Only underlings are going to be armed (though an armed civilian event card might be amusing).

Quoted from Dalek4890l

I do like the public opinion rule but I'd be picky and call this a Show special effect

Good point, I did not have the rule book to hand.

Quoted from Karl@Crooked Dice

I have done some early work on A:E Pulp (entitled TKO) including outlines for the archetypes. I had a Crusading Crimefighter who's roots are in the Hardened Investigator archetype.

Cool.

Hopefully this might allow you to judge the interest from the rest of the forum. If there is interest, it might also prompt Mr Copplestone to extend his excellent range (some armed police would be nice).

There are two period characters (one is the Man Of Bronze, the other still well known) who could be built from the Million Dollar Marvel. A certain Mr Templar would be a good Flamboyant agent>

Oh, and I had a look through the gadget list, quite a lot of them would still work, though you might want to swap the hair brush for a watch.

Quoted from UltraVanillaSmurf

My reasoning follows Doctor W's, Rifles and SMGs are not general issue. Your average G-Man is most likely to be armed with a pistol, I would have thought that rifles and SMGs are unlikely to be available to the avarage bureau agent. The driver is an upgrade on a lot of the extras, and would be included.


I thought about that, but looking at the stats, I saw no real advantage over just using security guards as tommy gunners.

The idea of heavily armed G-Men came from a film I saw where they attacked a house with large numbers of armed criminals in it. They were using tommy guns and the monitor assault rifle (modified Browning Automatic Rifle) against the villains that had the same and several shotguns. While the average G-man (like a cop) had a pistol they also had the heavy metal as well.

As I recall (probably incorrectly) the local police were not involved as the G-Men (FBI) thought they were in cahoots with the gangsters.

I agree with security guards but I just thought an armed 'Eavy or Criminal sounded  a bit better.

This setting could also play well with a villainous cast for each side (a gang war).

Something I'd really be happy to see.  :)

I contacted Mr. C about sculpting some G-men for the range, especially some Untouchables and he said it was on the list. However, that was about five years ago!!

Some more nagging might be in order.

Bribing police officers could be a good SFX for the criminal star archetype.  Cops are available to the heroic cast, but each officers loyalties could be subject to the villains influence.  G-men could be immune, untouchable as it were.

We're talking "TV and Movie Land" here, in real life it was often more violent.

American Police have always used firearms, in the early 1900's each Station House would have a cache of Shotguns and Rifles - though the extent would depend on the district and crime level I would imagine.

Criminals knew this, so retribution could be quite excessive -



That headline is from 1935.



The above picture from 1931 shows Milwaukee Police Rifle Training.

There is reference made on this page http://www.gunclassics.com/m1928.html to Police Use of Tompsons -

Quoted Text

During Prohibition in the "Roaring Twenties" (and also the 1930's), small numbers of these weapons were stolen--or otherwise acquired by corrupt means--from police armories and used by infamous Gangsters.

The implication being that the Police were issued with them first.

Quoted from Dalek4890l

The idea of heavily armed G-Men came from a film I saw where they attacked a house with large numbers of armed criminals in it. They were using tommy guns and the monitor assault rifle (modified Browning Automatic Rifle) against the villains that had the same and several shotguns. While the average G-man (like a cop) had a pistol they also had the heavy metal as well.

That scenario is based on an actual event, I can't remember who it was holed up in the house, but the bust followed quite a bit of investigation by the FBI. Many of the Gansters were carrying some heavy armament, Dillinger also used bullet proof vests in many of his bank robberies. The book 'Public enemies' has loads of information in it and covers the majority of the infamous names of the era.  :)

This is what I want to see....




might not be the right year, but....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ned_kelly_armour_library.JPG  

I never realised that Ned Kelly only had one leg.

Here's Eureka's version of Ned Kelly riding a penny-farthing:
http://eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_153_157&products_id=1882

Quoted from Chris Viau

Bribing police officers could be a good SFX for the criminal star archetype.  Cops are available to the heroic cast, but each officers loyalties could be subject to the villains influence.  G-men could be immune, untouchable as it were.

I'd say that the Underworld Boss already has this with his 'On The Payroll' star quality. I like the idea of some extras being immune though.

I've also found out where the gangsters got their tommy-guns from: the manufacturers!! Yes all you had to do was give them c. $225 plus $10 -$3 for ammunition and it was yours. That's about £3,000 in todays money so you'd need a substantial amount of income to afford it (try running a pub :))

Ah the days when you could buy a Tompson straight out of the box . . . . .

Quoted from Booboo

This is what I want to see....




might not be the right year, but....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ned_kelly_armour_library.JPG  

A great quote in Wikipedia:

Quoted Text

Kelly's skull, however, remains at large

Who can sculpt Mick Jagger?

Quoted from Doctor Warlock

We're talking "TV and Movie Land" here, in real life it was often more violent.

American Police have always used firearms, in the early 1900's each Station House would have a cache of Shotguns and Rifles - though the extent would depend on the district and crime level I would imagine.

...

The implication being that the Police were issued with them first.

One of the first orders for Thompson SMGs was from the US Post Office, though the US Navy supplied the Marines to use them.

I know very little about the period (though see later), mostly it is from fiction (film or book). I guess some areas were Warzones, though I would have thought that in a lot of areas heavily armed police would not be popular.

My thought was that the Armed Law Enforcement would have pistols, but some higher authority would have to release heavier firepower.

Inspired by the subject, I bought the Osprey book on the Thompson, but I have not finished it yet.

On the subject of background, has anyone any suggestions on books and films?

One of my favourites is "Last Man Standing", part of my "Yojimbo" collection.

I remember Connery's accent in The Untouchables (plus the Eisenstein inspired pram in the station).

For books I'd recommend 'public enemies'. It'll cover all the main protagonists as well as the founding of the FBI. Its also packed full of potential scenarios. Film wise, the untouchables obviously, Millers crossing, The shadow (for some Pulp).

As for heavily armed police, I honestly don't think it ever occurred anywhere in particular. Each state police force was a separate entity and operated independently. Many gangsters plans were to rob a bank and then head to a neighbouring state to avoid arrest. Many banks took matters into there own hands and armed their security guards to try and deter thieves. This problem with inter-state cooperation is the one thing the FBI tried to counter, creating a national database so that a criminal wanted for a crime in one state was wanted across the country.

Nearly finished the Osprey book. Very interesting (if I get the chance I will put a review together - not quite sure which section to put it in).

Research is normally described as follows, one source: copying, two sources: plagarism, three sources: research...  and the following is based on the one book ^__^

An interesting item was that Chicago bought 35 tommy guns, but returned them because they were concerned about collateral damage in the event of a shootout.

Hoover went out and bought a Tommy Gun and posted it to an officer in Kansas.

I do wonder how the forthcoming film will deal with Hoover's first dealings with the tommy gun in bulk (probably by ignoring it).

ironclad do some landing party figures in tis type if scheme

One range of figures  for this that has most things you may need are the Steve Barber Models Prohibition Wars range. It doesn't have everything including the kitchen sink........but it does have some trash cans. There is also a photographer who could appear as an event card and double the cost of using  more firearms than the other side . Or perhaps give everyone a chance to re-roll fear and other morale checks if they are within 6" of the model (everyone shows off for the camera). Or perhaps everyone has the pacifist disadvantage if the photographer is within 6" (the police aim carefully to avoid appearing too bloodthirsty and the gangsters prefer to be compared to Robin Hood rather than Ghengis Khan).